Pharyngula

Wednesday, August 10, 2005

A wee bit of advice to the creationists

I am tired, so tired. A few people have claimed we're overreacting to Bush's tepid endorsement of Intelligent Design creationism, but no…look at the deluge of garbage from the frauds of creationism that has followed it. There's the ignorant Buttars, lying about science; the 'sound science' phony Roy Spencer (see Tim Lambert and Jan Haugland on this one) calling evolution a 'religion' on that dishonest piece of astro-turf, TechCentralStation; the right-wing hatemonger Pat Buchanan babbling inanely about 'explosions' and 'missing links'; Peter Wood making up definitions (small-e vs. big-E evolution, the old creationist misinterpretation of micro and macro evolution in different words); the trivial James Lileks whining about being pestered to actually think about science, rather than just spluttering out emotionalisms; the usual boring Discovery Institute drones exercising their persecution complex and crying about censorship.

It's damned dreary stuff. I enjoy hacking up the idiocies of creationists regularly, but when it comes in a flood, it's just boring. They all say the same stupid things. Every one of those links above is to an idiot; every one is a pompous ass who knows nothing about the science, but is willing to make his incomprehension and delusions public. I'd like to offer some advice to you creationists, in the interests of making these arguments a little more interesting and challenging.

  • Stop all the talk of Darwinists and Darwinism! We like Darwin all right, but he is not our pope or idol—he's a smart guy who came up with a wonderfully elegant idea that has been greatly improved and expanded over the years. Calling all evolutionists Darwinists is like calling all Christians Athanasians; it may not be entirely repugnant to the addressee, but it speaks volumes about the ignorance of the speaker. It ignores all the important historical changes that have occurred, and labels you immediately as unaware and uninformed.
  • Quit attacking the facts of evolution! Literally millions of biologists have been contributing to the body of knowledge we call evolution, and there are libraries full of data that support it. When you make up nonsense like "information theory and entropy disprove evolution" or "There is zero scientific fossil evidence", you are engaging in denial. These are statements that just tell the listener that you are ignorant; you are wrong. We know a great many things about evolution and the history of life on earth, and denying them just discredits you in an Augustinian sense. If Intelligent Design creationism purports to add new mechanisms to the well established biological processes of evolution, tell me what they are and what positive evidence you have for them!
  • The Argumentum ad Consequentiam is a fallacy, not a valid line of argument! Even if evolution did lead to atheism, immorality, man-on-cockroach sex, and voting Democratic, that is no more a point against the theory than is the fact that gravity makes people go splat when they step off of a ten-story building. I also am not interested in your list of evil people who believed in evolution, because I've got an even longer list of evil people who believe in Christianity; because people have some bad ideas does not mean that all of their ideas are bad, nor does a single good idea or act justify every single effusion that bubbles through their brain.
  • Speaking of atheism, drop it. When as demonic an atheist as Richard Dawkins can praise Ken Miller(amzn/b&n/abe/pwll) fulsomely, it's not us that have a problem with religious tolerance—it's you.
  • Stop whining about "fairness"! Losers cry "unfair, unfair" when they're getting their butt kicked. The Chicago Cubs don't get to win the World Series just because it would be fair, and they don't get to pass a law declaring themselves the champions—they have to beat the competition on the playing field. The fact that ID can't pass muster on the playing ground of science doesn't justify legislating it into school curricula, and is most definitely not an argument for the validity of ID. Every time you whimper about discrimination and censorship, you're admitting you are failures.

OK? Please? Seriously, you're making it easy and therefore dead boring to battle against you, and I'm getting a little fed up with it all. Challenge me. Say something that shows you know some science.

And really—aren't you getting a bit embarrassed at these cretins like Buttars and Santorum and Spencer and Buchanan and Lileks representing you?

I know I'm getting a bit embarrassed myself at all these rummies you keep fielding.


Trackback url: http://tangledbank.net/index/trackback/2713/

Comments:
#34701: — 08/10  at  01:12 PM
PZ,

Not to nitpick, but I'd drop the term "evolutionist". I wouldn't call you an evolutionist, for example, but a biologist. To my ear, it sounds rather like "gravitationalist" as opposed to "physicist".

What the creationists call "evolutionism", is what rational people call "education".

-jcr



#34702: Orac — 08/10  at  01:16 PM
"Even if evolution did lead to atheism, immorality, man-on-cockroach sex, and voting Democratic, that is no more a point against the theory than is the fact that gravity makes people go splat when they step off of a ten-story building."

Heh. I like it. I'll have to remember that one.

#8212;
Orac “A statement of fact cannot be insolent.”
http://oracknows.blogspot.com



#34703: — 08/10  at  01:18 PM
You kick all kinds of ass! I'm so glad I put you in the RSS-agreggator.
Best lunch-hour read I've had this week.



#34704: — 08/10  at  01:22 PM
The problem is, you're taking away all their arguments. The main things ID proponents have going for them are appeals to authority, strawmen, and argumentam ad consequentiam.

If they confined themselves to valid, scientific arguments, they'd have to shut up.



#34705: — 08/10  at  01:38 PM
The argument from atheism has always surprised me a bit. If evolution really did imply atheism, then the correct conclusion should be that god doesn't exist, not that evolution is wrong. I don't think that was what the pious where trying to prove.

As a sidenote, we should drop the word "atheist" since people can't agree on it's meaning. Does anyone have a suggestion for what the position "I don't give a damn about god/satan/Santa Clause" should be called?



#34706: — 08/10  at  01:42 PM
Magnus--

I've always liked "skeptic". It expresses almost exactly how I feel about religion, and has the added benefit of being pretty much free of negative connotation.



#34708: — 08/10  at  01:42 PM
I am tired, so tired.

What snark type are you, PZ? I'd be glad to offer you a snark transfusion if there's a match.



#34709: — 08/10  at  01:42 PM
Here's a useful on-lin resource:
Stephen's guide to the logical fallacies
http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/welcome.php

You can find most of the IDC arguments there.



#34710: paperwight — 08/10  at  01:43 PM
Does anyone have a suggestion for what the position "I don't give a damn about god/satan/Santa Clause" should be called?

I think of myself as a radical agnostic. I don't know if any of the supernatural powers exist (I tend to think of them as unprovable / unfalsifiable claims), and I don't rely on their existence or nonexistence in making decisions.



's avatar #34711: PZ Myers — 08/10  at  01:47 PM
The general term is "freethinker". It includes atheists, agnostics, pantheists, and deists.

Only thing is, they don't ever vilify those danged agnostics -- atheists are the ones who get all the heat.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#34712: notheory — 08/10  at  01:50 PM
Hm, that is technically a proper application of modus tolens... A = "evolution is true", B = "god does not exist", A -> B, christians assert ~B, thus ~A. So that's valid logic. The question then is it appropriate to assert ~B?

In actuality, we don't deny the existance of god, we deny the truth in literal biblical creation (replace the meaning of B). But, of course, because its written in the bible, it must be literally true, and since that contradicts evolution & geology & physics, all of science is wrong, not them, or the bible.

In conclusion, David Horowitz is an intellectual pygmy.



#34713: notheory — 08/10  at  01:53 PM
PZ:

The preachers who troll my campus claim that all agnostics are secretly theists. Then again, they also say that atheists are all secretly theists. rasberry

Anyway, i have heard some people give harsh words to agnostics (i.e. being wishy-washy, indecisive), and claim at least atheists take a stand.

In conclusion, David Horowitz is an intellectual pygmy.



#34714: Jim Harrison — 08/10  at  01:57 PM
If you're in a position of profound ignorance about the sciences, you're pretty much stuck with believing whatever some trusted authority figure tells you, just as almost everybody is at the mercy of their dentist and auto mechanic. We think of ad hominem arguments as ways of attacking a position, but in many cases ad hominems are used to support one. And that probably holds for both sides of the evolution/creationism fight. Most of the lay supporters of evolution with whom I've spoken have only the vaguest idea what it is they are supporting. They just rely on a different and, as it happens, better set of authority figures.

Because what's underway is a war of testimonials, the fact that there is no serious scientific debate about the reality of evolution is often irrelevant. Which doesn't mean that the cause is lost. Americans may distrust the elites that tell them their ideas are wrong, but they also desire the goodies that the sciences have provided them. Fundamentalism may promote creationism and ID, but evolution has its own religious sponser, the American Cargo Cult.



#34717: GrrlScientist — 08/10  at  01:59 PM
I wonder what the creationists would say if one day, evidence comes to light that the people who wrote the bible were mostly drunkards or they abused some other type of drug and wrote the bible while "under the influence". Do xians issue their own version of "fatwahs"?

Coincidentally, my security word is "atheist".



#34718: — 08/10  at  02:00 PM
The preachers who troll my campus claim that all agnostics are secretly theists. Then again, they also say that atheists are all secretly theists.


Tell them they're all secretly atheists. After all, I'm sure there are an awful lot of gods out there that they DON'T believe in!



's avatar #34719: PZ Myers — 08/10  at  02:01 PM
Yeah, and if your sect isn't the same as their sect, you're going to hell no matter what. I've heard almost as much vitriol aimed at Catholics as atheists (see Chick, Jack).

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#34720: — 08/10  at  02:02 PM
PZ mentioned "the 'sound science' phony Roy Spencer." I wonder if he is any relation to Lee Spencer, a creationist at Loma Linda. I was looking for photos of hominid skulls, and happened upon this website with a lot of good photos (http://origins.swau.edu/papers/man/hominid/default.html), but then the author, who does not dispute the reality of these fossils, comes up with the following wacko conclusion: "An explanation that is consistent with the data and with the Biblical account of origins is that man has been engaged in exchanging genetic material with the pongids..." He follows with the caveat that "... hybridization between modern humans and apes is an hypothesis that should not be tested."



's avatar #34721: PZ Myers — 08/10  at  02:02 PM
GrrlScientist, it ain't coincidence...it was designed that way.

PZ Myers
Division of Science and Math
University of Minnesota, Morris



#34722: notheory — 08/10  at  02:06 PM
Yeah, that's why the religious right is going to blow apart sooner or later. There are already cracks forming over things like allowing Q'urans to be used as a religious book in court testimony, or various other places where faiths wish to be treated equally.

I've got lots of mormon friends, and i'm dating a catholic, and all of them are surprised to hear that they're apparently not christians. ::grins::

In conclusion, David Horowitz is an intellectual pygmy.



#34724: — 08/10  at  02:31 PM
Over on Andrew Sullivan's blog, Dan Savage is guest blogging this week. Today he wrote:

I have a policy proposal: Anyone who doesn't believe in evolution shouldn't enjoy the benefits of evolution. No eyes, no walking upright, no opposable thumbs. It's back to the primordial ooze for members of the Kansas Board of Education.



's avatar #34725: — 08/10  at  02:32 PM
I wonder what the creationists would say if one day, evidence comes to light that the people who wrote the bible were mostly drunkards or they abused some other type of drug


Doesn't seem to phase them that -- according to the Bible -- the human race is descended from incestuous unions, so why should they care if the priests who wrote it were drugged out of their gourds? It doesn't seem to matter where divine inspiration strikes.

Heck, if it were shown to be true there'd be just another schism as one part of the faithful started to smoke palestine peyote and the rest declared them heretics.



#34726: — 08/10  at  02:33 PM
Wow, that has to be one of the all-time great rants.



#34727: notheory — 08/10  at  02:38 PM
Well, regarding theology, who's to say that god doesn't contact people via drunken drugged out stupors?

The lovely thing about self-sealing arguments, is that they really are impervious to real discussion.

In conclusion, David Horowitz is an intellectual pygmy.



#34729: — 08/10  at  02:47 PM
I've seen a lot of "please call me something other than atheist" stuff on freethinker blogs lately. I'm not getting it. I understand that there are different types of atheists, and a fine distinction can be made between "I don't believe in God" and "I have no theistic thoughts", but it seems like we're just wussing out and letting christians villify a perfectly good name.

I'm quite happy to take on the mantle of "atheist". I simply see saying "I don't believe in god" as shorthand for ""God' is an undefineable and unverifiable concept. Asking 'is there a god' is as meaningless as asking 'is there a snarkgorbzler'."



#34730: — 08/10  at  02:50 PM
For some reason, I'm thinking of the Flanders boys from The Simpsons playing the "Convert the Heathen" video game:

"I got one! Full conversion!"
"Nah, ya just winged him and made him a Unitarian."



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