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Thursday, December 29, 2005

Ask an exorcist!

The religious are nuts. I've just read an interview with an exorcist that is full of details and rules and strange interpretations. This is nothing but modern day witch-doctorin', superstition and ignorance codified into bizarre behaviors. Catholicism has this weird polytheistic cult thing lurking under the fancy robes and overwrought architecture.

They're based primarily on the Bible, according to which God created all beings: mankind as well as the pure spirits, in other words the angels and demons.

…and lares and penates. Let's bring back the little gods!

You may be wondering how you can tell if you are possessed. It seems all you need to have done is see The Exorcist to be fully qualified to recognize the symptoms.

Are there objective criteria that can be used to determine if a person has been possessed by a demon?

The new ordinance on exorcism summarises the criteria for the event of possession very well. The clearest for me as a priest is the deep aversion to holy objects such as the cross, the rosary or the sign of the cross. Also an aversion to the word God - when it is spoken, such people get very nervous. Less significant indications are the supernatural capabilities that these people can suddenly develop. They can speak foreign languages that they've never learned. They can levitate; they can float, they can overcome gravity. Sometimes they become inexplicably strong and violent. But it's not that easy to diagnose cases of possession. I usually suggest that people see a neurologist or a psychiatrist before I get involved in their case. If I am advised by these experts that they can't help, then I can begin a spiritual treatment. As a rule, I would say that of ten people who request an exorcism, one is truly possessed.

I wonder how often this happens…the priest advises a consult with a neurologist. The neurologist examines the patient; he is floating in mid-air, croaking in Latin. Then the neurologist calmly says, "I can't help him."

While priests don't seem too surprised at levitating people, I think a doctor or scientist would be much more excited, and would be calling up the local university to get more people and equipment to study the phenomenon. It would be a sensation. We'd see photos and movies and all kinds of records of the event.

It hasn't happened. I suspect that if you are the kind of gullible priest who goes in for exorcisms, seeing a mentally ill person bouncing on a bed and babbling nonsense syllables would qualify as a demonic possession.

At the end, the priest says to the demon, "Go away! Disappear!" The demon usually answers, "No, I don't want to." It rebels and revolts. Sometimes it says "You have no power over me. You are nothing to me." But after a while, its resistance weakens. This usually happens after the invocation of the Holy Mother, she's very important for that. No demon ever dares to insult her during an exorcism. Never.

Does he have more respect for Mary than for God himself?

Apparently. Otherwise no holds are barred, and everyone is insulted: the priests, everyone present, the bishops, the Pope, even Jesus Christ. But never the Virgin Mary. It's an enigma.

Uh-oh. I've insulted priests and bishops and popes and Jesus, but I don't think I've ever said a cruel word about the Virgin Mary…yet. I'm going to have to think of something mean to say, before some kook priest decides my lack of interest in one of their demigods is a sign of diabolical intent.

(via Black Arts Diary)


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Comments:
#55576: Weakly World News — 12/29  at  09:16 AM
.
Yes the religious are nuts. I just wish I was the kind of person who could take advantage of them in order to stuff my bank account.
But I guess you have to be a religious leader to do that sort of thing.

And still an avowed atheist could never be elected President in the asylum that exists outside my skull.
.



#55577: — 12/29  at  09:25 AM
Glimpse the future

Science & Theology News is running an January 2, 2006 article by Bill "Vise Strategy" Dembski

William Dembski says the Dover verdict is not ID's Waterloo, but merely one battle in a long culture war



#55578: The Rev. Schmitt. — 12/29  at  09:25 AM
And catholics wonder why they're constantly accused by fundamentalist Protestants of worshipping Mary.

I'm going to have to think of something mean to say,

A virgin in Nazareth? Not bloody likely.

-The Rev. Schmitt.



#55580: Weakly World News — 12/29  at  09:31 AM
William Dembski says the Dover verdict is not ID's Waterloo, but merely one battle in a long culture war.

Okay Bill, take your pick then: ...Crécy, Agincourt, Poitiers, Trafalgar...
.



#55583: — 12/29  at  09:52 AM
One would think that an exorcist would be embarrassed to bring up neurology, considering the field has produced scads and scads of evidence for a biological basis of consciousness. Doesn't that sort of stand in direct conflict with the premise of this guy's livelihood?



#55584: — 12/29  at  09:53 AM
Any psychiastrists in the house? Would an exorcism be an effective treatment for a mentally ill person who subscribes to the same belief system and believes s/he is possessed?



#55585: — 12/29  at  09:59 AM
They're *more* persuaded by people becoming "extremely nervous" around references to God than by levitation?
I was raised Catholic, and as far as I could ever tell we were supposed to be nervous about God. After all, he knew what you were doing and would mete out punishment accordingly, and had whole sets of rules that often didn't make a lot of sense.

Sounds like they're more worried about atheists than anyone else, actually.
And, honestly, ten percent? They can't possibly think the rate of possession, even assuming it exists, is that high, can they?



#55586: — 12/29  at  10:00 AM
"They can speak foreign languages that they've never learned."

Dammit. I can scarcely speak the ones I have learned! Does that mean I'm unpossessed?



#55587: — 12/29  at  10:10 AM
Personally, I'm a lot less worried by Catholic exorcisms -- which at least have a strict set of rules and guidelines that must be followed -- than I am by the freelance ones done in storefront churches. Those are the ones where the "possessed" are likely to end up dead at the end from overzealous exorcism.

I guess I'm the only one here who remembers the spinal tap scene in The Exorcist. I hate needles.



's avatar #55588: — 12/29  at  10:12 AM
If exorcism is supported by the catholisism, then they are indeed nuts.

And the assortment of gods and demigods and realms are confusing. Let's see, it's supposed to be three gods, isn't it: the God, the Son of God, the Spirit?! Demigods such as the Mother of Son of God, the Devil, angels, demons. Realms such as Heaven, Hell, Purgatory, Hades, Gehenna, Limbo and many more; I don't know if Dante's and islamisisms levels apply for catholisism as well. The mishmash seems like an infinitheism instead of a polyheism.



#55589: — 12/29  at  10:13 AM
I have a very basic math question about demons. Presumably the ones who fell way back at the beginning are all there are, right? I mean, God wouldn't make any NEW demons, I can't imagine. So did there used to be, like, millions of demons per person back in Adam's day, and now they have to job-share? Wouldn't the human race get better and better as the demon-to-human ratio improved in our favor? But I don't see any evidence of that. Perhaps the whole demon thing is just a way of avoiding responsibility and treating others cruelly with impugnity. But surely religion wouldn't support those sorts of motives. Would it?



#55590: — 12/29  at  10:18 AM
Makes me wonder if possession is a secondary, iatrogenic illness. Kind of like multiple personality disorder. MPD crops up in clusters, with the same clinician seeing dozens of patients. The alleged base rate is so low that this should be impossible, so many contend that MPD is iatrogenic.

If exorcists see lots of possessions, it may be the same exact disorder in religious guise.



#55591: — 12/29  at  10:19 AM
EVinson, find me a demon...maybe my Chinese and French will improve. But if it's a language I've never studied, I'd like to have Italian, please.



#55592: — 12/29  at  10:20 AM
Greg Peterson said: "So did there used to be, like, millions of demons per person back in Adam's day, and now they have to job-share?"

This is basically the foundation myth of Scientology:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenu



#55593: — 12/29  at  10:21 AM
Goodness, it all reads like a discussion between comic-book nerda about whether the Hulk could beat Superman.

No demon would dare insult Wonder Woman!

I went to a Catholic high school and I do recall that there was a fair bit of skepticism about exorcisms among the laity. The nuns tended to be more superstitious, and I'm not entirely sure about the priests. Surely there must be priests who can still distance themselves enough from the superstition to think with some objectivity about this. One would hope some of them can recognize that the sort of people prone to "possession" and stigmata are the highly suggestible type, prone to fantasy.

The essence of Christianity is, or ought to be, service to fellow man. Those that aren't given over to Christian Scientist thinking, rejecting all modern medicine, should see the value in seeking conventional medical treatments, and not automagically jump to the "DEMONS DONE IT" conclusion. I'm sure God, if he existed, wouldn't be offended by the objective examination of all possibilities in order to best help our fellow man.



#55594: — 12/29  at  10:21 AM
no nym, would exorcism have any therapeutic value as a placebo?



#55595: — 12/29  at  10:24 AM
"Also an aversion to the word God – when it is spoken, such people get very nervous."

Yeah, well I get nervous when the Word Of God is spoken too, but generally because after the sermon someone wants to hand me a Watchtower and steal thirty minutes of my life assaulting me with idiotic jibberish.

Or it could be demonic possesion.

Either way.



#55596: Kristine Harley — 12/29  at  10:31 AM
There's a whole cottage industry within the Catholic Church of priests doing excorcisms, selling holy water, using rosaries as if they were talismans, officially validating "miracles" and the like, that many of us never glimpse (I was raised Protestant). However, looking back I remember the many things that the people around me said, and still say, that amount to magical incantations, as it were, since they shunned religious images and objects. And of course, in the Protestant universe (particularly in the Christian Science and Jehovah's Witness substrata) there is a cottage industry of books and "study guides," for long evenings spent debating Scripture at the kitchen table. (I don't have to tell you what a party that is.) There's a weird polytheistic cult thing going on in evangelical Protestantism, too--even mere humans, like the insufferable Hal Lindsey, become akin to gods for some people. I think it's all nuts.



#55597: — 12/29  at  10:32 AM
Yeah minimalist,

I also grew up going to Catholic Schools (Jesuit)and I find it pretty hard to believe that any one of the priests or monks who taught me would buy into any of this. They could accept a lot of other strange metaphysical beliefs but the notion of actual supernatural occurrences in our physical dimension in the modern day and age tended to prod their skepticism more than their piety.

Oh and the Hulk could absolutely beat Superman. He is the strongest their is.



#55598: — 12/29  at  10:33 AM
"...before some kook priest decides my lack of interest in one of their demigods is a sign of diabolical intent."

You probably get nervous or at least annoyed around holy objects and references to god too. I can't tell if you can levitate or speak foreign languages without studying them from your web site...Perhaps it's time for an emperical test. Begone: Mary wants you to geddoudahere...Nope, the web page didn't disappear. I guess you're not demonically possessed after all.



#55599: — 12/29  at  10:39 AM
As a former Catholic, I can say that my personal experience has been that the portions of the Catholic population that give significant credence to things like possession, talismans, etc. are often those whose regional cultures already had some sort of belief in a pantheistic or animistic world, or had some sort of native rituals which incorpoated the ideas of spirits, possessions, etc.

(This is merely observation and anecdote I know. Coming from what can be oxymoronically termed a "WASP Catholic" background, I never encountered much of this side of the dogma.)



#55600: — 12/29  at  10:40 AM
Allright, not to go all Catholic here, but really - the Catholic Church is based on tradition - lots and lots of tradition. Its the fundamental criticism that most of the mainstream Protestant Churches have against the Catholic Church - that they put tradition on equal footing with the Bible, instead of putting the Bible first.

Catholic exorcism has been around for a long, long time. Its not going to go away just because modern medicine has come up with explanations for many of the things that would have once been called "possession". I'm just glad that they modernized the practice so that neurologists and psychiatrists have to be consulted first, before any kind of supernatural explanation is looked at - that probably culls most of the "possessions" right away.

And for all of the jokes about people levitating over the bed - when the neurologist says "I can't help" and the psychiatrist says "I can't help", its much more mundane. Its simply the types of things that we have no explanation for yet or no way to measure. And if a priest saying some magic words and making magic hand gestures above the patient makes the patient feel better, by all means go ahead and do it if there's nothing the doctors can do to help.

Like Mnemosyne says, I'm much more worried about the non-Catholic exorcists who do this without the structure forcing them to make people check every known rational cause first before resorting to "possession" as the explanation. Its not just overzealous exorcisms that are a danger, either. People with severe mental illness who think they're "healed" by the exorcism may go on and hurt themselves or someone else later. At least the Catholic structure requires that the "possessed victim" see someone with medical knowledge before resorting to the supernatural.



#55603: — 12/29  at  11:16 AM
I've ever said a cruel word about the Virgin Mary � yet. I'm going to have to think of something mean to say …


Well, you'll have to try awfully hard to outdo this year's South Park Christmas epsiode "Bleeding Mary," in which the Virgin is seen "bleeding out her ass." This clip shows a priest getting an ample faceful of Her Blessed Flow.

Maybe this is really what Eucharist wine transubstantiates into.

She's supposed to be a Virgin—why should the Catholics be upset if Mary's trolling for vampires?



#55604: Andrew Brown — 12/29  at  11:18 AM
I was at a science and religion conference organised by a noted Catholic writer on these matters (John Cornwell) with various of the usual suspects -- Dan Dennett, I think, John Searle, Mary Midgley, Nicholas Lash, then the head of the Catholc theological Associationof Great Britain, and an ordained Anglican priest named Bill Clocksin who works in the computer sciencedepartment of the unversity. Speaker after speaker -- including Lash -- got up and testified to the dependence of consciousness on the body. "When you're dead, you're dead" they said. But, afterwards, and outside the building, I was talking to one of the Anglican priest -- I think, though it was a decade ago, that this was Fraser Watts, who is a psychologist -- and I asked him what he'd do, inth elight of his beliefs, if a parishioner asked to be exorcised. He replied that of course he'd perform the service, if he thought it would help. Helping people was much more important than being right.

I don't think there is any question that, phenomenologically, some people are helped by this, and should be. As several people have said, the practices of the Catholic (and Anglican) Churches are most unlikely to do any real harm. The ones that are wicked are the crazy pentecostalists.



#55606: — 12/29  at  11:40 AM
Hilarious!

�Pope Benedict XVI goes to investigate. He, too, is sprayed with blood when he walks behind the statue. A reporter says, �The pope investigated further and determined that the statue was not bleeding out its ass, but its vagina.� To which the pope replies: �A chick bleeding out her vagina is no miracle. Chicks bleed out their vaginas all the time.�


And get this! The Catholic League for Religious and Civil Liberties is pressuring a Catholic Viacom director to prevent the release of this episode on DVD! How very 16th century, in the 21st century.



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