PZ Myers. 2006 Jan 08. IDEA clubs: now with extra sneakiness and ignorance!. <http://pharyngula.org/index/weblog/idea_clubs_now_with_extra_sneakiness_and_ignorance/>. Accessed 2006 Feb 13.
Posted on M00o93H7pQ09L8X1t49cHY01Z5j4TT91fGfr on Sunday, January 08, 2006
IDEA clubs: now with extra sneakiness and ignorance!
You might recall that the IDEA clubs required that their leaders be Christian (linked to Google cache).
1) Having an interest in intelligent design and creation - evolution issues, and a willingness to learn more.
2) Agreeing with and being willing to uphold the IDEA Center's mission statement.
3) Having a desire and commitment to using these issues to educate and outreach to your fellow students, campus, or community.
4) We also require that club leaders be Christians as the IDEA Center Leadership believes, for religious reasons unrelated to intelligent design theory, that the identity of the designer is the God of the Bible. It is definitely not necessary to "be an expert" to start and run a successful a club. It is helpful to be familiar with the basics of intelligent design theory, but if you're not, that's where the IDEA Center hopes to step in and help educate you so you can in turn educate others. Where ever you feel like you might need help--whether its science, leadership skills, or practical tips for running the club--that's where the IDEA Center wants to step in an help you. We try to help give any club founder all the tools they might need to start and run a succesful club and help promote a better understanding of the creation - evolution issue at their schools.
No more! The rules have been changed.
1) Having an interest in intelligent design and creation - evolution issues, and a willingness to learn more.
2) Agreeing with and being willing to uphold the IDEA Center's mission statement.
3) Having a desire and commitment to using these issues to educate and outreach to your fellow students, campus, or community.
4) IDEA Club leaders must advocate the scientific theory of intelligent design in the fields of biology and physics/cosmology.
5) There are no requirements regarding the religious beliefs of IDEA Club leaders or founders.
So now, instead of requiring Christianity, they require a) that one be an advocate of the "scientific theory of intelligent design" and b) that one agree with the IDEA center's mission statement. That's interesting; there is no scientific theory of intelligent design. There is no science behind it, and it doesn't qualify as a theory—even calling it a hypothesis is over-generous, since we typically expect even hypotheses to have some foundation in evidence and observation. That's strike one. What about that mission statement?
We believe that in the investigation of intelligent design the identity of the designer is completely separate from the scientific theory of intelligent design, since a scientific theory cannot specify the identity of the designer based upon the empirical data or the scientific method alone, and is not dependent upon religious premises; nonetheless, we consider it reasonable to conclude that the designer may be identified as the God of the Bible, while recognizing that others may identify the designer in a different way.
How cunning! They cut out the blatant religious requirement and buried it more subtly in the mission statement—if you don't think it reasonable to identify the designer as the God of the Bible, you aren't the kind of person they want running their clubs. I guess the Raelians are going to be disappointed.
Intelligent Design creationists do seem fond of sneaking their beliefs in through the back door, don't they?
It's also interesting how much they emphasize that absolutely no expertise is required to be a leader in the IDEA clubs. That's their clientele: people who know absolutely nothing about science, but are willing and eager to repudiate it.
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How interesting. Is that Google cache permanent? Is someone preserving copies of their old requirements? It could come up in a future discussion (or court case.)
BTW, I will take credit for the tip.#: Posted by on 01/08 at 01:05 PM -
The wayback machine at archive.org doesn't have anything because of ideacenter.org's robots.txt, which only lists the internet archiver in the following 5 lines:
User-agent: ia_archiver
Disallow: /
User-agent: ia_archiver/1.6
Disallow: /
So it seems they explictly don't want any caches/archives of their content, but arn't smart enough to limit other robots/web archivers. One could read this as that they do not have very much confidence in their content.#: Posted by Andy on 01/08 at 01:27 PM -
Interest in science is not required. Perhaps we should praise them for not (overtly) requiring hostility to science.
#: Posted by Les Lane on 01/08 at 02:02 PM
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The IDEA Center provides all IDEA Club Chapters with 2' x 4' high quality vinyl "IDEA Club sign."
oh, heck, that's enough of a reason to sell my soul to Satan and anyone else who gets in the way: i want one of dose signs!!
The wayback machine at archive.org doesn't have anything because of ideacenter.org's robots.txt, which only lists the internet archiver in the following 5 lines ...
yeah, robots.txt is a voluntary thing public spiders follows. alas, archive.org is very much public so can't help but follow them. however, many private spidering firms simply disregard these, particularly those seeking data on competitors.#: Posted by ekzept on 01/08 at 02:20 PM -
BTW, the other sneaky thing the creationist alchemists do is fail to public (whether electronically or using dead trees) the proceedings of conferences, like the 2004 one. you need to order an audio recording of the conference.
so, like the failure to allow archiving of their Web sites, these critters "have a lot of good science in the pipeline" that's not only not available now, but never will be.#: Posted by ekzept on 01/08 at 02:36 PM -
I wonder what would happen if a Hindu tried to start a club. It's obvious that they want their club members to be Christian, but now that it's not required by their rules ...
#: Posted by kutsuwamushi on 01/08 at 03:00 PM
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ID isn't a hypothesis either. A hypothesis must be testable. ID is just an article of faith.
#: Posted by on 01/08 at 03:02 PM
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I find the idea of hitting certain ID proponents with idea clubs, repeatedly, to be rather appealing.
#: Posted by on 01/08 at 03:10 PM
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God loves a liar.
#: Posted by on 01/08 at 03:43 PM
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I guess Jews, and maybe Muslims, can lead IDEA clubs now. They must be so happy.
Of course that a person would have to Xian to conclude that the designer was the God of the Bible was absurd, with Jewish IDists (few, but not zero) easily fitting that description. So it looks like they're at least a bit more logical in their statement now (that Schaeffer (sp?) guy could be an IDEA leader now, were he a student). But well, what were they supposed to do, disavow their purpose and the only reason anyone has to be pro-ID?
Obviously the requirements do and must limit the leadership, explicitly or otherwise. If theological commitment (however vague) were not required, science might displace belief. And then how long would the club last?
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/b8ykm#: Posted by on 01/08 at 03:51 PM -
I've been corresponding with the leader of the Cornell chapter, following their press release declaring that ID is testable and is a valid scientific theory. I pressed for an explanation, and they have not yet explained how it qualifies as both of those.
I'm now asking their Prez. if they were aware of this requirement when they became prez.
Does anyone know when the IDEA center changed these rules?
Karl#: Posted by The Inoculated Mind on 01/08 at 04:45 PM -
Somebody should really start one of these clubs with the premise that the FSM is the "designer."
#: Posted by on 01/08 at 05:07 PM
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i think i've been watching too much Deep Space Nine and Bukaroo Bonzai recently. when IDers speak of gods and deities being Their Designer, i just see communities of intelligent beings and civilizations existing at the subatomic level, powered by "muon energy", controlling everything on the macroscopic for their own, nefarious ends. talk about little nissen, Loki gone wild!
hey, it ain't testable either.
so there!#: Posted by ekzept on 01/08 at 05:21 PM -
ROFLMAO
Don't be ashamed if you don't feel like an expert in science or other subjects if you want to start a club! All you need is the desire to see people learn about intelligent design, and the IDEA Center is here to help you.
That explains all.#: Posted by on 01/08 at 05:27 PM -
They cut out the blatant religious requirement and buried it more subtly in the mission statement
But still not sneaky enough to get it past your elite scientific research skills of actually looking at all the evidence, PZ. They must be aiming it at the enthusiastically non-expert, or those who are already committed to the ID lie.#: Posted by on 01/08 at 06:41 PM -
Credit where credit is due -- my source dug that up.
It's not just me, the IDists are rousing a whole army of people who know how to think critically and research basic claims.#: Posted by PZ Myers on 01/08 at 06:44 PM -
Erm... You've just linked back to this same blog entry. It's a bit circular to refer to yourself as your source ... bordering on the god-like even.
#: Posted by on 01/08 at 07:43 PM
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It's a link to Ivy Privy's comment.
#: Posted by PZ Myers on 01/08 at 07:49 PM
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Ah. Interestingly that wasn't showing in IE's URL display.
PS Don't tell me to use FireFox instead. It was slow loading and then seemed to be hogging all the resources and even failing to unload itself properly on closing. So I've had to go back to IE and stop looking at PT altogether - the newly designed PC-crashing look of which had prompted my trial of FireFox in the first place.#: Posted by on 01/08 at 08:11 PM -
4) IDEA Club leaders must advocate the scientific theory of intelligent design in the fields of biology and physics/cosmology
Did anyone else notice how they snuck in physics/cosmology? Cosmology I can understand, but physics?
Seriously, F = (m * a) ^D
Outside of big bang stuff, are there any ID physicists?#: Posted by on 01/08 at 09:18 PM -
Did anyone else notice how they snuck in physics/cosmology? Cosmology I can understand, but physics?
Seriously, F = (m * a) ^D
Outside of big bang stuff, are there any ID physicists?
Yeah, if anything, ID is a mental disorder that is much more prevalent among cosmologists that take the anthropic principle *much* too seriously. They probably put in "physicists" just because cosmologists have long had lousy reputation for accuracy. (less so, now)
But it's interesting to consider that even for "ID" cosmology, the intervention _only_ occurs at t=0; tweeking the electron/proton mass ratio, for example. After which, the universe just has to "evolve" on its own.
Unlike ID biology, which apparantly requires constant poking and prodding. I guess that means that biology is just much, much harder for a poor overworked diety to suss out 13 billion years in advance.#: Posted by on 01/08 at 10:43 PM -
we consider it reasonable to conclude that the designer may be identified as the God of the Bible, while recognizing that others may identify the designer in a different way.
Judging by all the physical laws all gods contradict, I'd say that P(ID is correct) >> P(God exists | ID is correct).#: Posted by Alon Levy on 01/08 at 11:17 PM -
Playing Diety's Advocate here: Many universities require that recognized campus clubs have non-discrimination policies wrt membership, and have to include such in their bylaws to be approved. This change could be a response to that if they've had trouble forming chapters in such places.
But that doesn't necessarily excuse burying the religious nature of the club. Other religious groups on such campuses get along just fine.#: Posted by on 01/09 at 12:03 AM -
This particular piece of nonsense delights me:
a scientific theory cannot specify the identity of the designer based upon the empirical data or the scientific method alone
No, really? You can't just check the label? The holy book isn't much use either? So much for the first commandment.
Can they actually argue that the same science that proves that the world is designed requires that the designer cannot be identified?
No identifiable designer ... let's call it evolution.#: Posted by on 01/09 at 02:18 AM -
Does anyone know when the IDEA center changed these rules?
The new rules for founders/leaders of local clubs page says (C) 2006 at the bottom. That might be clue that it's recent.
Also, I met Hannah Maxson, president of the Cornell IDEA Club at an off-campus event Friday evening. She was asked point blank about the old religious requirement. She dodged, she weaved, she waffled, but she would not give a direct answer. She kept repeating, "ask about it on Monday", which makes sense if she knew the rule was in process of being changed (and was integrity-challenged).
I can verify that the old rules were still in place as of November 29, 2005.#: Posted by on 01/09 at 11:16 AM -
To provide some balance against GMU IDiotarians, I point out that George Mason University also has an Evolutionary Computation Laboratory.
I'll be vigilant for news about the local IDEA group in the campus paper and will gladly share such here.
(Full disclosure: I'm a grad student member of the ECL.)#: Posted by [MAC] on 01/09 at 02:57 PM -
They've changed the page yet again. Now it reads:
5) There are no requirements regarding the religious beliefs of IDEA Club leaders or founders. (Indeed, there are currently IDEA Club leaders who are not Christians.)
(emphasis added) Hindu? Muslim? Agnostic? Fool?
The page still has this text on the right hand graphic: "'Plans fail for lack of counsel, but with many advisors they succeed.' (Proverbs 15:22) Be sure to find a few friends to help you with your club to give practical help, advice, feedback, and the occasional encouraging word!"
I'm under the impression that was not suggested by the non-Christian IDEA club leaders.#: Posted by dorkafork on 01/09 at 09:32 PM -
It appears the Google cache has rolled over, glad you were able to catch it in time.
#: Posted by on 01/10 at 10:20 AM
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Ha ha ha ha ha! This just gets funnier! Look at the Instructions for starting a club page again:
2) Agreeing with and being willing to uphold the IDEA Center's mission statement.
...
Step 1: Take a look at our mission statement.
The first step in starting an IDEA Club chapter is to take a look at our mission statement and see if you agree. Our mission statement is as follows:
The purpose of the IDEA Center shall be to:
# Promote, as a scientific theory, the idea that life was designed by an intelligent designer,
# Educate people about scientific problems with purely natural explanations for the origins and evolution of life,
# Challenge the philosophical assumptions of Darwinism, naturalism, and materialism,
# Facilitate discussion, debate, and dialogue in a warm, friendly, and open atmosphere where individuals feel free to speak their personal views,
# Host lectures, conferences, and other events for churches, educators, and those interested,
# Help establish and maintain student-run IDEA Club chapters on school campuses or wherever interest exists.
If you agree with our mission statement and would be willing to uphold it as you run a club, then proceed on to step 2!
...
They have a mission statement right there on the 'start a club' page, and it is different from the Mission Statement page which is linked in the instructions! For review, that page says:
Purpose and Mission
The mission of the IDEA Center
The IDEA Center is a 501(c)(3) non-profit organization based out of San Diego, California. Our mission statement is as follows:
# The IDEA Center is an educational non-profit organization which explores and discusses the topic of “origins” from a pro-intelligent design viewpoint, focusing primarily on the scientific issues and secondarily on the religious / philosophical implications found in any scientific theory which attempts to answer the question, “how did we get here?”
# Our activities will strive to create a warm, friendly, and open atmosphere of inquiry, dialogue, discussion, and debate in which participants of all viewpoints are respected, understood, and free to speak their personal views.
# We believe that in the investigation of intelligent design the identity of the designer is completely separate from the scientific theory of intelligent design, since a scientific theory cannot specify the identity of the designer based upon the empirical data or the scientific method alone, and is not dependent upon religious premises; nonetheless, we consider it reasonable to conclude that the designer may be identified as the God of the Bible, while recognizing that others may identify the designer in a different way.
# Our primary focus of outreach will be to help establish and help maintain Center-affiliated student-run IDEA Club chapters on school campuses. We also offer support to all individuals and organizations who desire to promote intelligent design theory regardless of their affiliation, be it scientific, philosophical, or religious.
# At the heart of our advocacy is to promote intelligent design theory purely on its scientific merits. Our other advocacy goals include to challenge mechanistic and undirected scientific explanations for the origin and diversification of life, to challenge the philosophical assumptions underlying methodological naturalism, and as a final priority to explore the broader intersection of science, philosophy, education, and religion.
Adopted, 2004
Do club founders have to agree to both mission statements, or can they take their pick?
Archive these pages now!#: Posted by on 01/10 at 10:42 AM -
#57123: dorkafork — 01/09 at 09:32 PM
They've changed the page yet again. Now it reads:
5) There are no requirements regarding the religious beliefs of IDEA Club leaders or founders. (Indeed, there are currently IDEA Club leaders who are not Christians.)
(emphasis added) Hindu? Muslim? Agnostic? Fool?
The secretary of the Cornell IDEA Club is Muslim.#: Posted by on 01/10 at 11:02 AM -
TIMING of CHANGE:
When this was ? (last time You/anybody saw)
"4) We also require that club leaders be Christians.. "
When it changed to this ? (First time You/anybody observed ?)
"4) IDEA Club leaders must advocate.. "#: Posted by on 01/10 at 03:18 PM -
#57265: MrKAT — 01/10 at 03:18 PM
TIMING of CHANGE:
When this was ? (last time You/anybody saw)
"4) We also require that club leaders be Christians.. "
This was still in place as of Nov. 29, 2005.
I think the change happened just this last weekend, but that's the last time I verified the old rules.#: Posted by on 01/11 at 09:23 AM